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Post by Jewel Leigh on Jan 23, 2013 1:17:22 GMT -5
What is everyone's thoughts on Dumbledore? I've heard everything from belief that he is evil, to him being great, to simply manipulative.
What are your thoughts? Are his actions justified? Did he care about people such as Snape and Harry or did he merely use them as pawns?
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dejirah
Ravenclaw
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Post by dejirah on Jan 23, 2013 1:23:06 GMT -5
I feel like he was more into obtaining an end than figuring out the best means to get to the end. He's a great character and I think he may have let his part in the defeat of Grindelwald cause him to believe all his actions were justified as long as the end was met. I feel he should have taken Harry out of the Dursley's home because he was in an abusive environment. I think he needed Snape because he wanted to stay one step ahead of Voldemort and didn't care how he did so. He irritates the crap out of me by how oblivious he is at some things and how perceptive he is at others. But I feel, the reason I wasn't upset when he died, that he was simply a man trying to achieve an end without caring about the means with which he achieved that end.
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Post by The Taco on Jan 23, 2013 17:42:37 GMT -5
I think he was a manipulative old codger who cared more about getting rid of Voldemort than the people he hurt trying to achieve that goal.
In book six, he could have just helped Draco and Narcissa instead of letting Draco do all of that stuff for Voldemort and help the dark.
He could have proved Sirius's innocence from the start, but instead he let the guy rot in Azkaban for twelve years.
He could have halted Voldemort's return by not forcing Harry to compete in the Triwizard Tournament. He also could have LOOKED for the person who entered Harry's name in the first place.
He should not have made Snape kill him. That cost the Light a valuable spy, which Dumbledore obviously cared nothing about.
He should have told Harry about the prophecy as soon as Voldemort came back. That would have saved Sirius's life, too.
He shouldn't have borrowed James's invisibility cloak when he knew that Voldemort was after the Potters.
He really should have been more open with Harry and the Order, rather than hiding practically everything from them.
Bottom line, there are a lot of things Dumbledore could have and should have done that he didn't, and because of that, innocent people were hurt. And those are only some of my reasons for disliking Dumbledore. I could go on, but I think I'll stop here.
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Post by Jewel Leigh on Jan 23, 2013 19:14:30 GMT -5
I agree that Dumbledore could have done more and didn't. I'm not sure all those things are neccesarily simple.
Also, Dumbledore didn't know Sirius was innocent. It wouldn't make any sense if he did (even if he cared less about Sirius, why would he not track down Peter who would be sure to help bring back Voldemort?). Also, I think it stated somewhere that James and Lily switched to Sirius at the last minute, telling no one. Which explains how neither Dumbledore nor Remus would have known.
On helping Narcissa and Draco - very doubtful they would listen. Draco hates Dumbledore, is always talking bad about him. But I wish someone else could have reached out to Draco in HBP (other than Snape who had to play the part of a death eater).
Snape - what about the unbreakable vow? If Snape had taken that and NOT killed Dumbledore, Snape would have died.
On whether Dumbledore cares.... In the meeting between Dumbledore and Harry at the afterlife translation place, Harry says something like "you are a great man" to which Dumbledore replies, "you are kind." Implying that Dumbledore doesn't think of himself as a great man; rather, he knows he made mistakes and is regretful. I don't know if he could regret unless he cared at least on some level. Perhaps he felt he had no choice, but it doesnt mean he liked it either.
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Euca
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Post by Euca on Jan 23, 2013 22:07:02 GMT -5
I agree that maybe Dumbledore could have done more. While he does seem like the kind of man who thought more about the greater good and rationalized his actions using that justification, he wasn't cold or indifferent to what the people involved in his plans were going through. I think he genuinely cared for Harry and everything he did was to make sure that he would come to realize what he would eventually need to do and be strong enough to do it on his own in order to defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore isn't the sort of man who's actions can only be taken at face value. His actions always seem to have a greater purpose and it's hard to always find it, but it's mostly there. He wanted to make Harry independent and strong enough to accept his fate and accept death and all that, and therefore he didn't spoon feed him. He let him discover things for himself, especially after he died.
I agree that he could have stopped Harry from competing in the Triwizard Tournament, but as far as telling him about the prophecy, I think he was right in not telling Harry the minute Voldemort came back. It's easy to ignore that Harry was in a very emotionally unstable state especially since Cedric died. Besides, all said and done, he was only a 14yr old boy and to have something like that thrust upon you can be extremely hard to deal with. Dumbledore needed him to mature and he needed to know Harry could handle the truth. Plus, what would Harry have done even if he did know about the prophecy?
I don't know what Draco's relationship with Snape is. I wish Draco was more understanding so that he could have used Snape's help in HBP. Snape was probably the only person who could have really helped him out. I always think about Snape and him seeing Draco trying so hard to meet his father's expectations. He tried so hard to get himself to kill Dumbledore but he just wasn't someone who could go through with that kind of cold-blooded murder. And it's so interesting to see what Snape would think when he saw Draco being forced into committing murder and torture and all these horrible deeds by the Dark. I wonder if it would remind him of himself, before he went over to the Dark...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2013 0:58:58 GMT -5
I agree with Jewel and Euca. I think Dumbledore only really had the best intentions at heart. In the end, as great as he was, he only is one man, with faults and blindspots, and capable of making mistakes.
I don't think he could have stopped Harry playing in the Tournament. It was a magical contract that it would probably have been impossible to break. I highly doubt Dumbledore let Harry take part with the intention letting Harry get stronger or build character or anything, but merely because he had no choice. I imagine that breaking the contract you have with the cup could probably have some dire consequences.
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dejirah
Ravenclaw
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Post by dejirah on Jan 30, 2013 16:38:59 GMT -5
I believe that breaking the contract caused the cup's magic to... destroy the person. I agree that Harry had to participate, but Harry had the most difficult of all the tasks. There were other ways for Dumbledore to act during the Goblet of Fire, ways to protect Harry, actions he could have taken but didn't. I think overall, he's a good guy, but his faults and mistakes were of a more extreme variety with more dire consequences.
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veryweirdperson
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Post by veryweirdperson on Feb 7, 2013 18:40:20 GMT -5
He is an old man that may appear wise by nature, but had years to cover for it. He is cautious about small matters but seems to be blinded by his confidence that he knows the best by bigger problems wich lets him make the worse mistakes. His old age and experience give him the false belief of always being right and because he thinks like that he tends to crumble down all the other possibilities that may actually be right. He loves harry, a lot and his love for him mixed with the idea that he is the choosen boy and needs to be perfect makes him close his ears to everything the boy might prefer wich results horribly as we all know. He is an overall lovely, comical and wise old grandpa if you aren't too involved with him. But if you are you can clearly see all his failures, mistakes, faults, pain and everything about his nature, wich is quite imperfect making him more human. There were many times where I just wished to be in the same room as the old man and talk about all kinds of nonsense while eating lemon drops and other sweets and there were also times where I wanted to rip my face of and scream at his face to get it together. He's a manipulative, ignorant, caring, loyal, over-confident, experienced, michivious, smart old wizard and a fabulous character. I love him.
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carlota
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Post by carlota on Feb 9, 2013 14:20:47 GMT -5
I do believe he was manipulative, and not always for the best. No one is 100% good. I think he must have learned most people need a nudge in the right direction (Dumbledore's direction, that is). Also he was funny. That earns him billions of points.
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Rhindon
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Post by Rhindon on Feb 12, 2013 14:43:53 GMT -5
Dumbledore is funny. I like that.
I wonder why he was grffindor though? he's manpulative and dodging rather than forward. maybe he was different as a kid but he was rather abmitous about trying to get the hallows, right?
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dejirah
Ravenclaw
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Post by dejirah on Feb 12, 2013 22:06:48 GMT -5
I agree. I feel like he should be more of a Slytherin. However, who he is portrayed as (ie. a caring, loving, and just headmaster) is more of a Gryffindor. I think the headmaster throughout most of the books, in JK's mind, must have had to be a Gryffindor because it just kind of fit the story. Had he been portrayed as a Slytherin, readers may have believed he would be more like Draco or Snape before we knew he was a double, double agent.
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Post by Jewel Leigh on Feb 13, 2013 14:30:33 GMT -5
I agree... it's about perception, and I think Rowling is biased on this. Gryffindor is CONTINUALLY portrayed as the best house with the most important traits. Love, care, and friendship shouldn't be "Gryffindor" traits, but it is almost portrayed that way. With Slytherin being the exact opposite. So you are right, if Dumbledore was Slytherin, readers would expect someone more "evil."
From a literary standpoint, I understand having a Gryffindor Dumbledore. As Harry's mentor, Dumbledore needed to be relatable and trustworthy. Being a Gryffindor did just that for Harry.
But in creating a realistic world, you shouldn't just do things for literary and plot's sake. Personally, I think having a Slytherin Dumbledore would be fascinating. Having the two greatest wizards - Voldemort and Dumbledore - from the same house, yet fighting on opposite sides? Very cool, and it would have given a new dimension to the Slytherin house, which I've said more than once around here... it lacking.
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carlota
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Post by carlota on Feb 16, 2013 10:23:26 GMT -5
The whole silly, funny, caring Dumbledore bit just makes me think he should be a Hufflepuff. You know, the thing is, Dumbledore has traits from all of the houses. He's super intelligent and wise, which would put him in Ravenclaw, he's loving and silly, Hufflepuff, he's manipulative, Slytherin and then he's also brave and loyal, which comes down to Gryffindor. Maybe that's what JK Rowling was after. A Headmaster that has a bit of everything, being a Gryffindor could be just a detail. Maybe he was like Harry and asked the sorting hat to put him in a specific house or crossed one or two off the list.
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Post by Jewel Leigh on Feb 16, 2013 13:49:42 GMT -5
I don't see that much Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw in Dumbledore. A Hufflepuff headmaster would be far more nurturing and about equality to all students. Ravenclaw... is not just about being intelligent. Ravenclaw is about pursuit of knowledge and thinking of ideas in new ways. Dumbledore has wisdom, sure, but wouldn't anyone who is 115 with his life be wise? (ok, not necessarily. They could be.... Voldemort). So I'll give credit to Dumbledore for wisdom.
Nonetheless, I mostly see Dumbledore as Gryffindor and Slytherin. I had a theory that Dumbledore is so Slytherin that he asked to be put in Gryffindor because he saw it to his advantage. However, then I thought that the stigma against Slytherin might not have been so steep before Voldemort's time, so my theory is probably off. Chances are still favorable that Dumbledore at least nudged the hat in Gryffindor's direction.
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Post by Sadira Black on Feb 19, 2013 16:38:59 GMT -5
I don't feel like reading all of that, but I don't like Dumbledore... XD
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